|
|
Post by grif on Apr 10, 2021 14:32:41 GMT -5
Hey guys. I got Clint to give us a spot in the saber section to share tips/info on using these little machines. Any info is good info:). I'll do sme kind of video soon but feel free to beat me to making the first one. Please keep it to the small equipment though. Or at least manual machines. Edited. Obishane's post made me realize i shouldn't have said keep it to manual machines. There are some neat add on cnc kits for the little machinist.
|
|
|
|
Post by Peacekeeper's Armory on Apr 10, 2021 15:50:43 GMT -5
I have a Precision Matthews 10x22 lathe and a PM-25v milling machine. I’ll chime in where I can. I’ll be doing an off-site run that requires a lot of machining (about 15 chassis) so I’ll have lots to document haha.
|
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 10, 2021 20:32:51 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes.
Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling?
|
|
|
|
Post by grif on Apr 10, 2021 22:59:34 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes. Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling? I'm currently using a newer Little Machine Shop lathe and an old micro mark mill. I think China makes them all just about. They are tricky to deal with. I'm curious to see what others use. I am sitting on a new mill from Little Machine Shop. Gotta get off my but lol. |
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 11, 2021 0:45:11 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes. Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling? Yes, actually Taig. Taig is basically T slots everywhere, Tailstock, headstock, cross slide, compound slide. It's a modder's micro lathe basically, and I would not have recommended it if you hadn't typed "...or smaller" since, its a little on the small side for doing saber parts over 4" long. Parts and accessories are extremely reasonable, they even have CNC kits if you wanted to dive down that rabbit hole. Here's a tricked out one with a riser.  When I ordered mine I would just contact this guy here and he ships right out of AZ. www.cartertools.com/price.htmlAnd here's the milling table for it,  Part #1220 $67.65 Milling attachment mounts directly on crosslide (2 x 3 3/4" table) And here's a picture of one setup.  Here's a video of one running so you can get a sense of scale. Oh and yes, Very much looking forward to a machinist section on the forum. It's long overdue  |
|
|
|
Post by grif on Apr 11, 2021 12:20:59 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes. Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling? Yes, actually Taig. Taig is basically T slots everywhere, Tailstock, headstock, cross slide, compound slide. It's a modder's micro lathe basically, and I would not have recommended it if you hadn't typed "...or smaller" since, its a little on the small side for doing saber parts over 4" long. Parts and accessories are extremely reasonable, they even have CNC kits if you wanted to dive down that rabbit hole. Here's a tricked out one with a riser. When I ordered mine I would just contact this guy here and he ships right out of AZ. www.cartertools.com/price.htmlAnd here's the milling table for it, Part #1220 $67.65 Milling attachment mounts directly on crosslide (2 x 3 3/4" table) And here's a picture of one setup. Here's a video of one running so you can get a sense of scale. Oh and yes, Very much looking forward to a machinist section on the forum. It's long overdue That is a neat little machine for sure. |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 11, 2021 19:26:12 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes. Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling? Yes, actually Taig. Taig is basically T slots everywhere, Tailstock, headstock, cross slide, compound slide. It's a modder's micro lathe basically, and I would not have recommended it if you hadn't typed "...or smaller" since, its a little on the small side for doing saber parts over 4" long. Parts and accessories are extremely reasonable, they even have CNC kits if you wanted to dive down that rabbit hole. Here's a tricked out one with a riser. When I ordered mine I would just contact this guy here and he ships right out of AZ. www.cartertools.com/price.htmlAnd here's the milling table for it, Part #1220 $67.65 Milling attachment mounts directly on crosslide (2 x 3 3/4" table) And here's a picture of one setup. Here's a video of one running so you can get a sense of scale. Oh and yes, Very much looking forward to a machinist section on the forum. It's long overdue This is kind of what I was looking for! Something small, but very precise. Though you are right, it seems almost prohibitively small.... But that's coming from a guy who's used to using little and bigger. A Taig machine seems like it would be good for chassis and accessory parts as opposed to for example 8 in threaded body sections of hilts |
|
|
|
Post by Nerf Herder on Apr 12, 2021 7:16:23 GMT -5
My current mini lathe is great for doing small stuff, but it lacks a lot of precision and consistency I would have hoped from such a machine. Feel like that's pretty standard from those blue and white rebranded Chinese mini lathes. Any recommendations for a more precise yet still relatively small (7x14 or smaller) lathes? Anything with T-slots in the cross slide for rudimentary milling? I wouldn't discount that li'l lather just yet. Heck, I'm using a 12" mini lathe and I've done 30-40 sabers on it. The only thing that I haven't been able to machine on it was a long taper on a stembridge scope, I was short by about .375 on the cross slide. Which, if you've turned a taper using the cross slide (compound), might as well be 50 feet. Lol |
|
|
|
Post by Nerf Herder on Apr 12, 2021 7:18:23 GMT -5
One thing, if you upgrade the gibs to bronze, you effectively remove almost all play/backlash in the compound.
|
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 12, 2021 15:15:16 GMT -5
I wouldn't discount that li'l lather just yet. Heck, I'm using a 12" mini lathe and I've done 30-40 sabers on it. The only thing that I haven't been able to machine on it was a long taper on a stembridge scope, I was short by about .375 on the cross slide. Which, if you've turned a taper using the cross slide (compound), might as well be 50 feet. Lol You're probably right, I can get caught in a groove of "what's the next new tool". Buying tools is too easy when thinking about what new stuff you can make! Eventually after uni when I get my own place I'll definitely need something to fit in a two bedroom apartment, and that'll be where a Taig or Sherline comes in. I've mostly done one piece hilts on mine, but I get a lot of banding due to the tailstock with live center being just slightly not concentric with my 3 jaw. I really have just been avoiding threading since I'm deathly afraid of breaking a plastic gear while trying to pull it off. Do you think I should bite the bullet and try making multipart hilts? |
|
|
|
Post by Nerf Herder on Apr 12, 2021 15:53:16 GMT -5
I wouldn't discount that li'l lather just yet. Heck, I'm using a 12" mini lathe and I've done 30-40 sabers on it. The only thing that I haven't been able to machine on it was a long taper on a stembridge scope, I was short by about .375 on the cross slide. Which, if you've turned a taper using the cross slide (compound), might as well be 50 feet. Lol You're probably right, I can get caught in a groove of "what's the next new tool". Buying tools is too easy when thinking about what new stuff you can make! Eventually after uni when I get my own place I'll definitely need something to fit in a two bedroom apartment, and that'll be where a Taig or Sherline comes in. I've mostly done one piece hilts on mine, but I get a lot of banding due to the tailstock with live center being just slightly not concentric with my 3 jaw. I really have just been avoiding threading since I'm deathly afraid of breaking a plastic gear while trying to pull it off. Do you think I should bite the bullet and try making multipart hilts? Overcoming that fear is integral. All of my hilts are threaded and it scared the crap out of me at first. The gears are a lot more sturdy than people think. You just have to develop those reflexes to disengage the feed. Learn to love the dial. |
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 12, 2021 16:25:06 GMT -5
I wouldn't discount that li'l lather just yet. Heck, I'm using a 12" mini lathe and I've done 30-40 sabers on it. The only thing that I haven't been able to machine on it was a long taper on a stembridge scope, I was short by about .375 on the cross slide. Which, if you've turned a taper using the cross slide (compound), might as well be 50 feet. Lol You're probably right, I can get caught in a groove of "what's the next new tool". Buying tools is too easy when thinking about what new stuff you can make! Eventually after uni when I get my own place I'll definitely need something to fit in a two bedroom apartment, and that'll be where a Taig or Sherline comes in. I've mostly done one piece hilts on mine, but I get a lot of banding due to the tailstock with live center being just slightly not concentric with my 3 jaw. I really have just been avoiding threading since I'm deathly afraid of breaking a plastic gear while trying to pull it off. Do you think I should bite the bullet and try making multipart hilts? Your three jaw chuck isn't concentric, none are. But they are close and convenient, and you can get away with most work with them ( I do). Not sure about your tailstock, but it could also be off center. But chances are the chuck is what's off. If the chuck has a backplate and isn't a threaded body then you should have some play between the boss and the chuck body, which allows for minor adjustments. There's lots of videos on youtube on how to adjust this. Keep in mind that the scroll mechanism isn't perfect and will give you a different "center" on any given round part of different sizes. None of this really matters if you turn and part off tho. Good 3 jaw chucks don't have much runout, but a crap three jaw chuck might have a ton. The Taig lathe, honestly might be right up your alley. It excels in portability, and while it might not be heavy. You will bolt it down to something that is. Another interesting fact is that billiard guys use Taig a lot, and run them with aluminum beds. Which I don't think is a great idea for turning metal, but one guy once told me does. Also, the dudes offer up large spindle bore headstock setups, with modified chucks which have a 1.3785 which is more than most lathes on the market. www.midamericapool.com/professional-large-bore-headstock.htmlI haven't tested any of this but I did find it many years ago when I still owned my Taig and was looking at options. |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 12, 2021 19:58:11 GMT -5
Overcoming that fear is integral. All of my hilts are threaded and it scared the crap out of me at first. The gears are a lot more sturdy than people think. You just have to develop those reflexes to disengage the feed. Learn to love the dial. My lathe actually doesn't have a threading dial which makes it even more exciting I bet, hah.
I assume then your body sections have male threads on both sides, and the shorter parts have female? The only way I can see doing interior threads on a long piece is with a follower rest, but that seems like a very specific accessory for one job
|
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 12, 2021 20:02:11 GMT -5
Your three jaw chuck isn't concentric, none are. But they are close and convenient, and you can get away with most work with them ( I do). Not sure about your tailstock, but it could also be off center. But chances are the chuck is what's off. If the chuck has a backplate and isn't a threaded body then you should have some play between the boss and the chuck body, which allows for minor adjustments. There's lots of videos on youtube on how to adjust this. Keep in mind that the scroll mechanism isn't perfect and will give you a different "center" on any given round part of different sizes. None of this really matters if you turn and part off tho. Good 3 jaw chucks don't have much runout, but a crap three jaw chuck might have a ton. The Taig lathe, honestly might be right up your alley. It excels in portability, and while it might not be heavy. You will bolt it down to something that is. Another interesting fact is that billiard guys use Taig a lot, and run them with aluminum beds. Which I don't think is a great idea for turning metal, but one guy once told me does. Also, the dudes offer up large spindle bore headstock setups, with modified chucks which have a 1.3785 which is more than most lathes on the market. www.midamericapool.com/professional-large-bore-headstock.htmlI haven't tested any of this but I did find it many years ago when I still owned my Taig and was looking at options. That's fair. I'll check out the chuck tweaking over the summer, as well as doing just a general tune up.
Did you use your Taig to do any hilts? If so, how did you tackle the size constraints? |
|
|
|
Post by grif on Apr 12, 2021 21:13:52 GMT -5
Obishane is correct on these chucks. When i have new jaws i mount a dremel with grinding stone in my tool post to make up for it. This has to be done with lathe running at full speed. If you take too much metal away you will take the hardened metal away but I've only run into one set that was that bad. Also i mark the jaws so they go back in same position every time. Not the perfect solution but it helps.
|
|
|
|
Post by grif on Apr 12, 2021 21:50:02 GMT -5
Here is a video i found real quick. A few out there.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 15, 2021 17:33:41 GMT -5
Your three jaw chuck isn't concentric, none are. But they are close and convenient, and you can get away with most work with them ( I do). Not sure about your tailstock, but it could also be off center. But chances are the chuck is what's off. If the chuck has a backplate and isn't a threaded body then you should have some play between the boss and the chuck body, which allows for minor adjustments. There's lots of videos on youtube on how to adjust this. Keep in mind that the scroll mechanism isn't perfect and will give you a different "center" on any given round part of different sizes. None of this really matters if you turn and part off tho. Good 3 jaw chucks don't have much runout, but a crap three jaw chuck might have a ton. The Taig lathe, honestly might be right up your alley. It excels in portability, and while it might not be heavy. You will bolt it down to something that is. Another interesting fact is that billiard guys use Taig a lot, and run them with aluminum beds. Which I don't think is a great idea for turning metal, but one guy once told me does. Also, the dudes offer up large spindle bore headstock setups, with modified chucks which have a 1.3785 which is more than most lathes on the market. www.midamericapool.com/professional-large-bore-headstock.htmlI haven't tested any of this but I did find it many years ago when I still owned my Taig and was looking at options. That's fair. I'll check out the chuck tweaking over the summer, as well as doing just a general tune up.
Did you use your Taig to do any hilts? If so, how did you tackle the size constraints? I used the Taig to primarily to modify existing hilts, and make parts for hilts, but not whole hilts. I need to see if I can dig back and find some old pics so you can get an idea of it, one with a whole hilt chucked up in it. One must is to make a bull nose live center, i designed a quickie and Aaron helped me make it at the time since I had no press, I think he also made one for Vector. Machining the soft jaws on the self centering chuck to hold large parts is also a must. Sherline actually makes chuck bodies now that fit Taig so you have more options than when I was doing it. Taig chucks are cheap so having a few isn't a big deal. I'd try and sort out a sherline self centering 3 jaw with stepped jaws, inside and outside if possible, that would cover 90% of the work. Well, the taig 4 jaw independant would do that too but more time consuming to chuck and center parts. |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 16, 2021 11:40:46 GMT -5
The people who run the midamericapool website also sell extended beds! Since they look like they're compatible with Taig parts, I reached out to see if their beds were the same profile. Sure enough (at least for their 24 inch bed extension) they're compatible with Taig parts as long as you sand down the carriage gib 3 thou or so.
There are three problems with this though:
1. The bed is all extruded aluminum with an anodized hardcoat.
2. The bed is hollow with open ends, not filled with cement like the default Taig bed.
3. It does not come with a rack gear.
I figure I can get around problems 2 and 3 with DIY, but I'm not sure how much worse the aluminum bed is vs the steel topped default. Pool cue turning has a lot less loads involved, but at the same time I'm not looking at turning 3" OD steel either. A Taig with 16.5" between centers certainly sounds promising...
|
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 17, 2021 4:12:17 GMT -5
The people who run the midamericapool website also sell extended beds! Since they look like they're compatible with Taig parts, I reached out to see if their beds were the same profile. Sure enough (at least for their 24 inch bed extension) they're compatible with Taig parts as long as you sand down the carriage gib 3 thou or so. There are three problems with this though: 1. The bed is all extruded aluminum with an anodized hardcoat. 2. The bed is hollow with open ends, not filled with cement like the default Taig bed. 3. It does not come with a rack gear. I figure I can get around problems 2 and 3 with DIY, but I'm not sure how much worse the aluminum bed is vs the steel topped default. Pool cue turning has a lot less loads involved, but at the same time I'm not looking at turning 3" OD steel either. A Taig with 16.5" between centers certainly sounds promising... Ok so I've spent several hours today diving back down the rabbit hole of micro lathes because. I understand stuff better now then I did back when I ran the Taig, and not understanding what it meant to have to make my own tools, and my own parts for the lathe and what limitations were in store. I hadn't considered that, so avoiding a system that needs to be created I think is your best bet. Turning larger diameter parts is easily fixed with Raiser blocks on micro lathes, this allows you to use your compound slide for all your operations and not just your cross slide. Also, I was originally going to recommend going with a double bed Taig setup bolted to a precision CnC'd fixture plate made with the Taig bolt patter, because I think that's better than a hollow aluminum cue lathe bed. But that's just too much work really and doesn't solve your threading issue. While Taig has come a long way with 5C headstocks and all sorts of cool mods, it doesn't have a purchasable threading train that I have been able to see, and even then, you don't have steel long bed setups. I am operating under the assumption that you will have to be moving this lathe on your own, up and down stairs maybe. and possible semi-frequently. That you will be using it indoors, in another bedroom/workspace. Those were the two big things as I understand it you need. So it needs to be portable and clean with a sealed bearing system. That eliminates vintage lathes entirely. So after hours or reading and going back down this path, taking what I know now and trying to put myself in your shoes. This is the route I would probably go. A Sherline with a 24" steel bed, that has 17" between centers. www.sherline.com/product/44004410-lathe/Raiser blocks to increase your swing to 6". www.sherline.com/product-category/accessories/lathe-accessories/riser-blocks/Thread cutting attachment. www.sherline.com/product/3100-thread-cutting-attachment/#descriptionThe thread cutting setup has manual spindle mandrel that you use to rotate the work and thread. Which is ideal imo for our type to stuff. Short threads/tight shoulders. IT seems expensive, but it's not thaaaaat much more expensive than a Taig. But it has several things the Taig doesn't, one I forgot to mention was a variable speed motor and controller. Again, I have not run this system but it's highly regarded in the industry. Let me know what you think. I love talking shop. |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 18, 2021 23:24:49 GMT -5
Ok so I've spent several hours today diving back down the rabbit hole of micro lathes because. I understand stuff better now then I did back when I ran the Taig, and not understanding what it meant to have to make my own tools, and my own parts for the lathe and what limitations were in store. I hadn't considered that, so avoiding a system that needs to be created I think is your best bet. Turning larger diameter parts is easily fixed with Raiser blocks on micro lathes, this allows you to use your compound slide for all your operations and not just your cross slide. Also, I was originally going to recommend going with a double bed Taig setup bolted to a precision CnC'd fixture plate made with the Taig bolt patter, because I think that's better than a hollow aluminum cue lathe bed. But that's just too much work really and doesn't solve your threading issue. While Taig has come a long way with 5C headstocks and all sorts of cool mods, it doesn't have a purchasable threading train that I have been able to see, and even then, you don't have steel long bed setups. I am operating under the assumption that you will have to be moving this lathe on your own, up and down stairs maybe. and possible semi-frequently. That you will be using it indoors, in another bedroom/workspace. Those were the two big things as I understand it you need. So it needs to be portable and clean with a sealed bearing system. That eliminates vintage lathes entirely. So after hours or reading and going back down this path, taking what I know now and trying to put myself in your shoes. This is the route I would probably go. A Sherline with a 24" steel bed, that has 17" between centers. Raiser blocks to increase your swing to 6". Thread cutting attachment. The thread cutting setup has manual spindle mandrel that you use to rotate the work and thread. Which is ideal imo for our type to stuff. Short threads/tight shoulders. IT seems expensive, but it's not thaaaaat much more expensive than a Taig. But it has several things the Taig doesn't, one I forgot to mention was a variable speed motor and controller. Again, I have not run this system but it's highly regarded in the industry. Let me know what you think. I love talking shop. Wow! Thanks a bunch for your time! I think I agree with you on the 17" Sherline. The more I look at Taig, the more weary I become about getting a motor mounted and making my own custom attachments. I'd like to say I'm a tinkerer, but lately I've been leaning towards spending a premium on convenience (3D printers is more or less where this comes from).
Cost is a big thing of course. Sherline does have different packages that include different attachments, but I'm not sure everything would be super useful. So I did a spreadsheet to sort out attachments I'd want at the get-go to see what kind of bang for the buck I'd be getting.
To summarize, these are the attachments I can see myself needing and not easily making: - 4 Jaw independent chuck (rectangular stock, dialing in concentric parts)
- 3 Jaw self centering chuck (convenience)
- Compound slide (tapers)
- Steady rest (facing long stock for one piece hilts, interior threads on long pieces)
- Thread cutting attachments (threads)
- Tailstock drill chuck (drilling)
I've already got a milling attachment that would be cool to use, as well as a dial indicator which has gotten a good amount of use. Bull nose live center seems like a great project. Riser blocks seem like a great upgrade down the line when I need them!
From this, Package A and buying attachments that it doesn't include is the least expensive option at 1.3k w/o shipping or tax. The next best option I think would cost 1.43k, where the only other attachment I'd get would be the 3 jaw. For that 130 bucks more, it includes 3 HSS cutters, cut-off tool, and 3 center drills. That amount of money goes much further on Amazon for some cheap insert tooling (my lack of a grinder is the main reason here) and center drills, even if I add on a rear mount cut-off tool from Sherline. They'd be lesser in quality I bet, but should be enough for the work I can see myself doing.
Gives me something to save up for! Ideally I'd be able to make stuff on my current lathe to sell to save up for a more portable one, but even if a Sherline is a not-any-time-soon thing, its fun to imagine ideal workshops.
What are thoughts on a metric vs imperial lathes?
|
|
|
|
Post by Nerf Herder on Apr 19, 2021 7:10:47 GMT -5
Overcoming that fear is integral. All of my hilts are threaded and it scared the crap out of me at first. The gears are a lot more sturdy than people think. You just have to develop those reflexes to disengage the feed. Learn to love the dial. My lathe actually doesn't have a threading dial which makes it even more exciting I bet, hah.
I assume then your body sections have male threads on both sides, and the shorter parts have female? The only way I can see doing interior threads on a long piece is with a follower rest, but that seems like a very specific accessory for one job
You should be able to add a threading dial. As for how the parts are threaded together, there's no handbook or one way to build. It all depends on the design imho.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 25, 2021 5:10:40 GMT -5
Ok so I've spent several hours today diving back down the rabbit hole of micro lathes because. I understand stuff better now then I did back when I ran the Taig, and not understanding what it meant to have to make my own tools, and my own parts for the lathe and what limitations were in store. I hadn't considered that, so avoiding a system that needs to be created I think is your best bet. Turning larger diameter parts is easily fixed with Raiser blocks on micro lathes, this allows you to use your compound slide for all your operations and not just your cross slide. Also, I was originally going to recommend going with a double bed Taig setup bolted to a precision CnC'd fixture plate made with the Taig bolt patter, because I think that's better than a hollow aluminum cue lathe bed. But that's just too much work really and doesn't solve your threading issue. While Taig has come a long way with 5C headstocks and all sorts of cool mods, it doesn't have a purchasable threading train that I have been able to see, and even then, you don't have steel long bed setups. I am operating under the assumption that you will have to be moving this lathe on your own, up and down stairs maybe. and possible semi-frequently. That you will be using it indoors, in another bedroom/workspace. Those were the two big things as I understand it you need. So it needs to be portable and clean with a sealed bearing system. That eliminates vintage lathes entirely. So after hours or reading and going back down this path, taking what I know now and trying to put myself in your shoes. This is the route I would probably go. A Sherline with a 24" steel bed, that has 17" between centers. Raiser blocks to increase your swing to 6". Thread cutting attachment. The thread cutting setup has manual spindle mandrel that you use to rotate the work and thread. Which is ideal imo for our type to stuff. Short threads/tight shoulders. IT seems expensive, but it's not thaaaaat much more expensive than a Taig. But it has several things the Taig doesn't, one I forgot to mention was a variable speed motor and controller. Again, I have not run this system but it's highly regarded in the industry. Let me know what you think. I love talking shop. Wow! Thanks a bunch for your time! I think I agree with you on the 17" Sherline. The more I look at Taig, the more weary I become about getting a motor mounted and making my own custom attachments. I'd like to say I'm a tinkerer, but lately I've been leaning towards spending a premium on convenience (3D printers is more or less where this comes from). Cost is a big thing of course. Sherline does have different packages that include different attachments, but I'm not sure everything would be super useful. So I did a spreadsheet to sort out attachments I'd want at the get-go to see what kind of bang for the buck I'd be getting. To summarize, these are the attachments I can see myself needing and not easily making: - 4 Jaw independent chuck (rectangular stock, dialing in concentric parts)
- 3 Jaw self centering chuck (convenience)
- Compound slide (tapers)
- Steady rest (facing long stock for one piece hilts, interior threads on long pieces)
- Thread cutting attachments (threads)
- Tailstock drill chuck (drilling)
I've already got a milling attachment that would be cool to use, as well as a dial indicator which has gotten a good amount of use. Bull nose live center seems like a great project. Riser blocks seem like a great upgrade down the line when I need them!
From this, Package A and buying attachments that it doesn't include is the least expensive option at 1.3k w/o shipping or tax. The next best option I think would cost 1.43k, where the only other attachment I'd get would be the 3 jaw. For that 130 bucks more, it includes 3 HSS cutters, cut-off tool, and 3 center drills. That amount of money goes much further on Amazon for some cheap insert tooling (my lack of a grinder is the main reason here) and center drills, even if I add on a rear mount cut-off tool from Sherline. They'd be lesser in quality I bet, but should be enough for the work I can see myself doing. Gives me something to save up for! Ideally I'd be able to make stuff on my current lathe to sell to save up for a more portable one, but even if a Sherline is a not-any-time-soon thing, its fun to imagine ideal workshops.
What are thoughts on a metric vs imperial lathes?
Dunno. Personal preference on metric vs imperial. Yeah. Ok so I wrote up this huge reply like twice now and deleted it both times since it's a bit messy and might start straying off topic. LoL. A couple flags came to mind with the sherline setup and I wanted to ask you a few questions. What precision issues are you having with your current lathe? And you can actually get a milling table to work on your current lathe. The little machine shop has the taig listed. littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1956Do you ever have problems with the distance between centers? Is Your current lathe too heavy? How heavy is too heavy? |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 25, 2021 20:24:28 GMT -5
Dunno. Personal preference on metric vs imperial. Yeah. Ok so I wrote up this huge reply like twice now and deleted it both times since it's a bit messy and might start straying off topic. LoL. A couple flags came to mind with the sherline setup and I wanted to ask you a few questions. What precision issues are you having with your current lathe? And you can actually get a milling table to work on your current lathe. The little machine shop has the taig listed. littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1956Do you ever have problems with the distance between centers? Is Your current lathe too heavy? How heavy is too heavy? I guess precision issues wasn't the most accurate term, more consistency. Here's an example:
These two hilts were turned on the same lathe, just at different times in different locations with different stock (as in they weren't cut from the same piece of stock, still from the same sized blank I use for single piece sabers). The one on the top is more recent, set up on a workbench I made. Both finishes were done with the same cutter with power feed at the same speed (change gear fear, hah!). Everytime I move my lathe around, I try to make sure I tune it back up to the same standard, checking for play and tightening gibs when necessary and checking tailstock alignment.
To turn these, I use 1.5x1in alu extrusion, 6061. After cutting off a piece with much elbow grease and a hacksaw, I mount it in the 3-jaw and tap the end into concentric with a dial indicator. I take super light facing cuts to true up the end since the stock sticks out so far. I check concentricity with the dial indicator every 3 or 5 passes to make sure things are square. After facing, in goes the live center and I turn the pommel side by the live center. Flip it around with either PVC on the pommel or copper wire around chuck jaws to not mar up the finish, then turn the other end. Aaaaaaaand banding. Only sometimes. The banding isn't one continuous band spiraled around, just multiple bands evenly spaced apart. It exists on the entire saber, no matter the distance from the tailstock or chuck.
I know I can get good surface finishes, it just seems like a bit of a coin toss trying to get things perfectly exactly the same. Maybe it's the tailstock alignment, maybe (and more likely) something's wonky with the leadscrew fixture. Another problem may arise since the chuck clamps on the OD and the live center is ID and they're not perfectly concentric, but I'm not sure.
You're right, I've been meaning to make some attachment that allows me to use the milling attachment due to my lack of T-slots. Plug and play is ideal, adapters are far from an evil necessity but a necessity nonetheless.
I haven't run into any limitations when it comes to swing or length, but I haven't really had many other projects than things for the lathe or sabers!
My lathe is roughly 90+ lbs. Not unreasonable (certainly not for a lathe), but a bit much for me to move going between uni and home. Lately it's stayed home. Ideally I'd like something that is light enough that it could be easily moved on and off a desk as I am expecting to have very limited workshop space in the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 26, 2021 5:35:32 GMT -5
Dunno. Personal preference on metric vs imperial. Yeah. Ok so I wrote up this huge reply like twice now and deleted it both times since it's a bit messy and might start straying off topic. LoL. A couple flags came to mind with the sherline setup and I wanted to ask you a few questions. What precision issues are you having with your current lathe? And you can actually get a milling table to work on your current lathe. The little machine shop has the taig listed. littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1956Do you ever have problems with the distance between centers? Is Your current lathe too heavy? How heavy is too heavy? I guess precision issues wasn't the most accurate term, more consistency. Here's an example:
These two hilts were turned on the same lathe, just at different times in different locations with different stock (as in they weren't cut from the same piece of stock, still from the same sized blank I use for single piece sabers). The one on the top is more recent, set up on a workbench I made. Both finishes were done with the same cutter with power feed at the same speed (change gear fear, hah!). Everytime I move my lathe around, I try to make sure I tune it back up to the same standard, checking for play and tightening gibs when necessary and checking tailstock alignment.
To turn these, I use 1.5x1in alu extrusion, 6061. After cutting off a piece with much elbow grease and a hacksaw, I mount it in the 3-jaw and tap the end into concentric with a dial indicator. I take super light facing cuts to true up the end since the stock sticks out so far. I check concentricity with the dial indicator every 3 or 5 passes to make sure things are square. After facing, in goes the live center and I turn the pommel side by the live center. Flip it around with either PVC on the pommel or copper wire around chuck jaws to not mar up the finish, then turn the other end. Aaaaaaaand banding. Only sometimes. The banding isn't one continuous band spiraled around, just multiple bands evenly spaced apart. It exists on the entire saber, no matter the distance from the tailstock or chuck.
I know I can get good surface finishes, it just seems like a bit of a coin toss trying to get things perfectly exactly the same. Maybe it's the tailstock alignment, maybe (and more likely) something's wonky with the leadscrew fixture. Another problem may arise since the chuck clamps on the OD and the live center is ID and they're not perfectly concentric, but I'm not sure. You're right, I've been meaning to make some attachment that allows me to use the milling attachment due to my lack of T-slots. Plug and play is ideal, adapters are far from an evil necessity but a necessity nonetheless.
I haven't run into any limitations when it comes to swing or length, but I haven't really had many other projects than things for the lathe or sabers!
My lathe is roughly 90+ lbs. Not unreasonable (certainly not for a lathe), but a bit much for me to move going between uni and home. Lately it's stayed home. Ideally I'd like something that is light enough that it could be easily moved on and off a desk as I am expecting to have very limited workshop space in the future.
I think this is a relatively easy fix.Your leadscrew is fine, impossible to say if your tailstock is off, but if your first operation before the flip went fine i think you should be good. Ok, so really quick there's a few things in your process that I might advise against. Fist, never tap your jaws to get your hilt concentric. I remember someone posting a video link about it and it blew my mind because I think it's really stupid, and I'll explain. Think about what's happening when you do that and how you were able to get your part "concentric". you are either deforming your material, or deforming your equipment. Mainly your jaw's teeth and/or scroll whee. The nature of the 3 jaw self centering chuck is that it will almost never run true, and you ESPECIALLY see that when you flip the part, and where you are running into issues. As I understand it that's when things go south right? When you flip the part and re-chuck it? And the first chuck and pass goes ok? So here's something I'd do, just to see how the runout in your chuck is. Take an end mill bit ( or something that is ground round, not material bar stock), and chuck it in your jaw so that you have enough grip on it but still enough stickout that you can indicate on shaft and not the flutes. The endmill bit is ground and round, unlike extruded stock which is not round, so it's a precision surface. Go in and apply some load and manually rotate the chuck. your lathe should be unplugged for this entire process. IF you see runout, loosen the 3 screws (maybe 4) that attach the lathe chuck to the blackplate while the chuck is still mounted on the spindle and your still indicating. There is a gap between the backplate and chuck body, this allows fine adjustment, and then use your usual tap soft blow hammer method on the chuck body (not jaw this time) and dial that sucker in. There should be enough so that you should get your jaw pretty close to concentric. If it's really really bad then it could be a backplate issue, in that case you'd want to indicate that. Here's a video I'd like you to check out. Now he's using a Grip-tru style chuck which has an adjustment mechanic built into it, so his adjustments to dial in the runout are easier and more precise, but the principle is the same. When he's using the hex key on chuck to adjust how the chuck body sits on the boss of the backplate, it's like you doing the tap method on your chuck body after loosing your backplate/chuck mounting screws. Tubelcain is a seasoned pro, careful of watching some of these guys on youtube. I ran into a couple videos with a pretty high cringe factor trying to find ones specific for your mini lathe. Then went back to one of the ones I know has his stuff together and I watch. But even then understand that if it's dialed in perfect and you have no runout on a 1/2" OD part, it won't mean that your chuck will have zero runout on 1" OD part. But it should be really close. Also really quick. You might get away with one OD turning setup if you use something like this, www.bealltool.com/products/turning/ix_collets.phpI've had this set for many years and use them on a lot of stuff I need to have 100% access to the outer surface. I've had to machine a few down to fit sizes of some stock I've needed but I can always order a replacement if needed. Using one of those holding one end of the hilt from the inside, like the blade holder 1", and then a live center in the other. You should be able to get away with doing all of your OD turning in one go, and not have to flip your part. Maybe. Ok, I've droned on long enough. Edit! Here's one I watched some time back that gets into things a bit, she shows an acceptable bump trick for the 3 jaw centering you fight find useful. She's smart and knows her stuff as well and she's quick with her knowledge delivers and gets right down to it. She's another who's videos I've watched and learned a lot from and would recommend to you. She touches on the concentricity issues and how flipping is a problem as well like I mentioned above. Edit #2 Another about what i mentioned above. Concentricity |
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 26, 2021 17:00:45 GMT -5
I think this is a relatively easy fix.Your leadscrew is fine, impossible to say if your tailstock is off, but if your first operation before the flip went fine i think you should be good. Ok, so really quick there's a few things in your process that I might advise against. Fist, never tap your jaws to get your hilt concentric. I remember someone posting a video link about it and it blew my mind because I think it's really stupid, and I'll explain. Think about what's happening when you do that and how you were able to get your part "concentric". you are either deforming your material, or deforming your equipment. Mainly your jaw's teeth and/or scroll whee. The nature of the 3 jaw self centering chuck is that it will almost never run true, and you ESPECIALLY see that when you flip the part, and where you are running into issues. As I understand it that's when things go south right? When you flip the part and re-chuck it? And the first chuck and pass goes ok? So here's something I'd do, just to see how the runout in your chuck is. Take an end mill bit ( or something that is ground round, not material bar stock), and chuck it in your jaw so that you have enough grip on it but still enough stickout that you can indicate on shaft and not the flutes. The endmill bit is ground and round, unlike extruded stock which is not round, so it's a precision surface. Go in and apply some load and manually rotate the chuck. your lathe should be unplugged for this entire process. IF you see runout, loosen the 3 screws (maybe 4) that attach the lathe chuck to the blackplate while the chuck is still mounted on the spindle and your still indicating. There is a gap between the backplate and chuck body, this allows fine adjustment, and then use your usual tap soft blow hammer method on the chuck body (not jaw this time) and dial that sucker in. There should be enough so that you should get your jaw pretty close to concentric. If it's really really bad then it could be a backplate issue, in that case you'd want to indicate that. Here's a video I'd like you to check out. Now he's using a Grip-tru style chuck which has an adjustment mechanic built into it, so his adjustments to dial in the runout are easier and more precise, but the principle is the same. When he's using the hex key on chuck to adjust how the chuck body sits on the boss of the backplate, it's like you doing the tap method on your chuck body after loosing your backplate/chuck mounting screws. Tubelcain is a seasoned pro, careful of watching some of these guys on youtube. I ran into a couple videos with a pretty high cringe factor trying to find ones specific for your mini lathe. Then went back to one of the ones I know has his stuff together and I watch. But even then understand that if it's dialed in perfect and you have no runout on a 1/2" OD part, it won't mean that your chuck will have zero runout on 1" OD part. But it should be really close. Also really quick. You might get away with one OD turning setup if you use something like this, www.bealltool.com/products/turning/ix_collets.phpI've had this set for many years and use them on a lot of stuff I need to have 100% access to the outer surface. I've had to machine a few down to fit sizes of some stock I've needed but I can always order a replacement if needed. Using one of those holding one end of the hilt from the inside, like the blade holder 1", and then a live center in the other. You should be able to get away with doing all of your OD turning in one go, and not have to flip your part. Maybe. Ok, I've droned on long enough. Edit! Here's one I watched some time back that gets into things a bit, she shows an acceptable bump trick for the 3 jaw centering you fight find useful. She's smart and knows her stuff as well and she's quick with her knowledge delivers and gets right down to it. She's another who's videos I've watched and learned a lot from and would recommend to you. She touches on the concentricity issues and how flipping is a problem as well like I mentioned above. Edit #2 Another about what i mentioned above. Concentricity Sorry for the confusion! When I said "I mount it in the 3-jaw and tap the end into concentric with a dial indicator", I meant the end of the stock just like the tip in the BlondieHacks video! I've never touched my jaws directly with a hammer.
The part I have with me has banding on both ends (even on the end that's tapered using the compound, so you're probably right with the leadscrew being fine), so I can't be sure that things start to go wrong before or after the flip. Most likely before the flip, something wrong with my setup in general. Maybe I need to add another brace to my table to get the wiggle out of it, that might help...
I definitely need to check my chuck when I get the chance. Check concentricity with endmill or something precision ground round, adjust with chuck mounting bolts best I can, then maybe true up the jaws with the grinding tip grif mentioned. I feel like even if it doesn't make a noticeable improvement to my parts, it's certainly something that'll give me more confidence when using it. Thanks for all the tips guys!
I've seen those expanding mandrels before! Or at least I'm aware of the idea of them with most tightening from the front. I didn't realize the back tightening ones were so inexpensive. I actually tried making my own that tightened from the back too! That... didn't go so well but it's all about learning anyway. Might be high time to give that tool another try now that I've got a bit more experience. I found this video which seems to have some pretty good ideas:
|
|
|
|
Post by Obi-Shane on Apr 26, 2021 19:16:36 GMT -5
Ah nice! That's good then. I was afraid you were tapping on the actual jaws. Joe Pi's channel is great. He's also a pro and I've watched several of his vids. Actually he's a uber pro, watch how fast he works. Same with Abomb79.
And yeah those work holding collets are sweet, and the price is great. The upside with getting the ones from the Beall Tool Company is that they are hard anodized, so their surface is hard as steel and they will last.
Back to your setup. You shouldn't have to add any legs to your bench to help brace it. I'd think the cast iron bed of the lathe is more than rigid enough to get a good surface finish on aluminum pipe. Would you like to do a video of your setup?
From start to finish, like chucking the material, and then running a pass. Could be a gib issue, and you could have some play. hmmmm.
|
|
|
|
Post by tbenen on Apr 26, 2021 22:21:08 GMT -5
Ah nice! That's good then. I was afraid you were tapping on the actual jaws. Joe Pi's channel is great. He's also a pro and I've watched several of his vids. Actually he's a uber pro, watch how fast he works. Same with Abomb79. And yeah those work holding collets are sweet, and the price is great. The upside with getting the ones from the Beall Tool Company is that they are hard anodized, so their surface is hard as steel and they will last. Back to your setup. You shouldn't have to add any legs to your bench to help brace it. I'd think the cast iron bed of the lathe is more than rigid enough to get a good surface finish on aluminum pipe. Would you like to do a video of your setup? From start to finish, like chucking the material, and then running a pass. Could be a gib issue, and you could have some play. hmmmm. I'll try to make a video when I get back home. I think documenting how I do one-piece hilts would be nice to add to the forum too, as a very beginner's machinist project. |
|
|
|
Post by megtoothsith on May 21, 2021 15:21:49 GMT -5
grif Thanks for starting this section. I am close to retirement on a 30 year sentence, and when I finally finish my job, I intend on taking some machining and welding classes at the local community college so I can begin my second career with SpaceX and maybe even machine a saber/chassis or 2. This has all been very informative, and the most exciting threads in the forum I've seen in awhile.
|
|
